“Illegal letting” discussion page
I’ve added this page for discussion about the illegal letting situation. As B Freeman says in his comment HERE, “There are other ideas that I’d like to kick around but I don’t want to crowd out Janet’s page too much”.
His comment was:
The latest official tourism statistics are interesting:
Overnight stays in hotels fell by 10% in March over the same month of 2011, as a result of a reduction by 8% of travelers staying, which means a difference of 74,392-year travelers less. This drop in the number of overnight stays is not offset by the growth of the average stay of travelers come in, which amounted to 6.45 nights.
The rate of room occupancy census stood at 79.41%, suffering a fall 6 points over the same month last year.
Source: http://www2.gobiernodecanarias.org/istac/jaxi-web/menu.do?path=/08022/C00031A/P0002&file=pcaxis&type=pcaxis&L=0
One frost doesn’t make a winter, but if this trend continues it might become obvious to the authorities that making private rentals unavailable doesn’t result in visitors choosing hotels instead. Tourists do have a choice. They can choose Cyprus, Israel, Egypt and many other places.
In addition to the proposed petition and lobbying by ALOTCA, which may eventually get results but will take a long time, I am in favour of a media campaign to win hearts and minds. I guess ALOTCA will be doing this too, but so much can also be done by individuals, for example: blogs, tweets, and youtube. I think there’s scope for someone to make a video showing the abandoned and decaying apartment blocks and commercial areas of which there are plenty of examples in the south of Gran Canaria.
Please feel free to discuss at your leisure.
the portugese reforms are really what the protest group which janet is part of should be trying to introduce in the canaries. What they now do in portugal is to charge apartment owners an annual permit fee of 400 euros. then subject to some standards of cleanliness and health and safety they are free to independantly rent their properties to tourists. That it what most owners have done in the canarires for many years without knowing they were illegal. There is no place in the new portugese system for sole agents with all the hotel add ons, 24 hour reception etc. In my opinion the canary protest group should campaign for reform in the canaries based on this portugese example. Tinkering with sole agency is just not helpfull at all.
http://algarve.angloinfo.com/countries/portugal/holidaylet.asp
Haven’t they just changed the rules there, though?
Hi Janet I,m not running you or anyone down, your team are doing a fantastic job but there are not many people, that are caught up in this mess which are renting out their apartment will become legal. As they own on old timeshare complex,s, old holiday complex,s that are gone bust and new complex,s built after 1995 Elmirador, Dinastasia, just to name a few. They are the majority of owners that are affected and things will never change for them.
Yes, that’s true for residential apartments. We acknowledge that, but we also have to take residents’ rights into account. There are absolutely loads of villa owners though …
” There are absolutely loads of villa owners though …”
That may be the case in Tenerife and Lanzarote. In Gran Canaria, there are very few villas. The big tourist areas are Ingles/Maspalomas, Puerto Rico and Puerto de Mogán. All of these were developed as hundreds of apartment complexes (Puerto Rico has over 200 complexes) and until the most recent developments there have been virtually no hotels.
Now that most of these apartment complexes are, in legal terms, “Residential” simply reflects the fact that owners have got fed up with being ripped off by sole agents and that they have managed to throw those sole agents out. It doesn’t mean that they are largely permanent homes. They are largely empty except at weekends. Ironically, the majority of the complexes in the best locations for tourists (i.e. near the beach) are residential. Surely, under a less restrictive regime it would make sense to ask for each comunidad to make up its mind about whether to allow holiday lets?
Absolutely. As I’ve said before, this is the personal view of the five of us, the founder members of Alotca, but given the mountain we’re trying to climb, we have to start with the conceivably achievable. I agree with you, though, BF.
I have to agree with BF above. I believe there is a very hazy line between a so called ‘residential’ complex and a touristic complex. When I first visited Tenerife in about 1970 there was hardly anything there in the south of the island – Las Americas was just a small beach with a couple of hotels and Los Gigantes was just a barren, rocky outcrop with one hotel and nothing else. Somewhere along the line the Government have allowed the building of the hundreds of apartment complexes we now see with the express intention of exploiting tourism in the coastal areas. How can they now turn around and say they are residential – they were certainly not built for the locals to live in and I’m sure the developers were not aiming at the residential market! They are holiday complexes no more, no less and probably 80 per cent of them are owned by none residents who spend up to 3 months a year there. It seems the full time residents who complain about tourists have a ‘not in my back yard’ mentality – the whole local economy is dependant on tourism and Tenerife will become a very sad and desolate place if it depends solely on the few weeks a year that the owners are in town!
at the end of the day the designation residential is just a tag given to many complex,s that were built to be sold to potential buyers, but had to be designated residential to avoid problems from the tourist build moratorium. Without buyers funding the purchase with tourist lets these places would have never been fully sold off at all. Until the crissis of 2008 no one complained about the renting, but with the downturn the hotels have instigated the crackdown, imaging that the apartments were taking their lost customers. If the campaign group can not fight to help el mirador and all the residential renters it might as well not bother at all. The group should not seek to make agreement on an easy basis with the canary government, the campaign will take time. The canary economy needs all the private renters, to not help the so called residential ones would amount to a nonsense. better to take time to achieve a just and satisfactory outcome, than to try to make a quick and easy appeasement with the canary government.
I’ve said before, Andrew, that we are not seeking appeasement, and there is a lot more at stake than just residential complexes like El Mirador. It is not a “nonsense”, in my view.
am i correct in thinking that alotca are not here to help owners of apartments who are renting out, just villa owners?
I,m sorry my comments has opened a bag of worms but people need to know that if your complex is classed or has been classed due to resale of the complex are residential . It is very unlikely anything will change for you in the near future. Which amounts to a large number of apartments and owners unable to rent. I feel It needs a more concentrated action from everyone don,t rent out for desigated month in the near future, as said before will concentrate the mind.
interesting head line in local spanish paper Friday
saying holidaymakers visiting the Canary Islands was 15.9% down
in April and unemployment is the highest in Spain right now.
Richard: Thanks. I’m collecting reports like that one. Do you have a link to it?
Interesting article on bbc news website “extra capital for Spanish banks” also on sky news website where it says “the Spanish government said it would also be liberalising rules for property rental to make it easier for the banks to sell their portfolios of property debt”.Do you think these comments are ammunition for Alotca??
B.F.I read it in the Tenerife daily paper ”LA OPINION”
Friday 11,s copy .I,m not very computer savvy you,ll
need to google it.
Thanks. Got it:
http://www.laopinion.es/economia/2012/05/11/llegada-visitantes-extranjeros-archipielago-cae-159-abril/412634.html
B.F. if you are tracking whats going on here in Tenerife
also google the other two popular daily papers ”EL DIA”&
”DIARIO DE AVISOS”
Dave need not apologise for his comments causing rancour here, this is a discussion page and he is stating the facts. In my opinion janet and alotca do need to state clearly their aims in respect of their campaign against the letting laws and this current severe crackdown. Senor Escobedo , the lawyer and alotca member, on his tenerife legal website wrote in favour of reform of the law so as to allow private tourist renting subject to payment of an annual fee to the canary government and in respect of certain standards of health and safety. This seemed to be basically the portugese system that we know of. In my view that is the sensible way forward, enable people to continue renting out without being involved with sole agents. Just get on with it like everywhere else in the world.
The situation regarding residential complex,s is very much unclear at the moment. Some older places were originally touristic but have lost the sole agent , so now they have become residential. These type of complex are being called dormant touristic and some people think that they could regain their touristic licence if a sole agent was introduced today. However that is unclear and these places may as things stand be stuck as residential. Then there are new complex,s like el mirador, that are entirely residential and can not ever gain a touristic licence.
Given that the canary economy is going to suffer greatly due to the letting stopping in all these apartments, it seems to me that alotca should campaign to help the dormant touristic sites and the so called residential ones. If the argument is easier for dormant touristic yes, fight that corner first, but given the vast numbers of residential apartments that have been up to now renting, then surely these people deserve help in this also.
Many people who own residential apartments are looking for alotca to help them. Others are looking for alotca to suceed in reform of these protectionist laws. In my opinion alotca needs to clearly state what reform of the current laws it is campaigning for, and who they may or may not be able to help?
This is such a tremendously delicate situation that the government is in – it literally has the future of tourism and Tenerife in its hand at the moment.
What with devastating unemployment figures and the slippery slope of declining tourism, the next 6 months are critical. Huge numbers of empty apartments is not going to help.
On the other hand, I can imagine that anybody who bought on a ‘residential’ complex and living there full time themselves, would be upset at having a constant stream of holiday-makers on the complex – people arriving and leaving early in the morning or late at night and generally exuberant behaviour.
I wonder if there is some sort of half-way house because I can also imagine that those who bought an apartment with the understanding from the estate agent that they could let, will be devastated emotionally and financially to find that they can’t, especially when they took a mortgage out to buy it.
Sarah, no, not correct in thinking ALOTCA is here just to help villa owners. We are also seeking a complete rethink on touristic strategy, as well as changes (to be negotiated) to the sole-agent system for touristic apartments. Where we are not seeking to make a change is to the residential apartment system: we are not seeking to allow touristic letting on residential complexes.
Carol, these proposals for “liberalising rules for property rental” are concerned entirely with long-term residential lets.
‘Villa Owner’, any buyer who trusts what an estate agent says is naive, ‘caveat emptor’!!!
Andrew, this is a discussion page, yes, but it is also my own personal website. I am grateful for Dave’s apology if he felt he needed to make it.
As far as helping residential apartment owners is concerned, we are starting (and maybe finishing too) with trying to amend the law to help those who are currently technically legal but completely stymied by the legislation. We are not seeking to make legal that which is currently illegal.
That is our dividing line, and although our personal opinions are in line with yours, our personal opinions must be subordinate to those of the asociación, which is a legal entity with rules in Spain under Spanish legislation.
As far as a clear-cut list of aims is concerned, this is a cultural difference and I (and Paul too, the other English member of the committee) need to get this message across to the lawyers and Maria. I agree it’s needed, and we need them to see that it’s needed too. We have a committee meeting next week – I will be pressing the point then.
thanks janet for that clarification. I certainley support your campaign and will e mail my wifes and my own membership of alotca very soon. I am not wanting to be negative but I personally think that the system they have introduced in portugal is the sensible way forward to reform the letting laws in the canaries. In my opinion sole agency is just a crazy idea , ill concieved in the first place , and certainley something that should not continue in the future. The downturn in tourism in the canaries at the moment is a two sided problem. One part is hotel occupancy decline due to the re emergence of egypt/n africa resort competition after the arab revolutions. The other side is self inflicted decline due to the crackdown on private renting.
The problem alotca has is that the canary government have supported the crackdown when common sense would have told them that they were going to harm their own economy. We can only conclude that they have been prepared to try to help the hotels without any thought for the welfare of the wider canary economy. In my opinion they are not going to do a u turn on this now or see sense. Alotca is going to have to tackle this at europe level to force the canary government to act fairley.
As I have said before the canary government have acted more like a Robert Mugabe set up on this issue so far, debating with such people to see sense and what is best for the entire canary people and economy will be difficult, even with the huge decline in canary tourism that is starting to take effect now and in the weeks ahead.
Janet Going back to the touristic/residential status of the various apartment complexes and a previous comment that the numerous residential complexes came about because of the moratorium on building, I beg to differ. I think I am right in saying that it was the Community association of owners of each apartment block who had to vote at their AGMs whether to be a touristic or residential complex. I remember it being explained to us at our AGM by our Administrators who implied that to be touristic would allow anyone and everyone to rent out and the place would be full of lager louts! Unsurprisingly everyone voted for it to be residential, and I believe all, or nearly all of the complexes in my area did the same – without realising the long reaching implications of this action.
At the same time I read an article in one of the local newspapers berating owners for taking this stance and denying other people the chance of renting apartments in the future. It basically said that we all probably started off by going to Tenerife for a holiday and staying in a hotel; then we progressed into renting an apartment for our family holidays and then, as we liked it so much, we decided to buy our own apartment – and then voted to stop future generations doing as we did by denying them the opportunity to rent out our apartments! In other words, a dog in a manger attitude! The significance of this article didn’t really hit home until now – but how true it is!
I can only point out my own experience from our apartment ownership. We bought on a touristic complex to be able to tourist let. When we bought 8 years ago there was a sole agent with the licence in place. We never got involved with that company, we rented on our own as did many other apartment owners. The sole agent then disappeared, everyone renting out carried on without hinderance, but officially the whole complex then became residential. We as a community did not vote for or against this but that is the sequence of events. Our complex is still listed on aronas legal touristic list. Any former touristic complex that ends up without a sole agent automaticaly reverts to residential.
The point I am trying to make above is, is it right that people are being fined for renting in residential complexes when they are only ‘residential’ due to a misguided, perhaps ill-advised vote/whim by owners at the time?
This isn’t the case, though, Karen. It is true with older complexes, but any complexes built since the 1995 law have been either touristic or residential according to explicit terms defined in the building licence the promoter/builder applied for and was awarded. The problem, in part, has been the difference in cost between the two types of licence: a residential build licence is cheaper by far than a touristic one. Of course, builders went for the cheaper licence even when building in self-evidently touristic areas. Moreover, since the moratorium, no touristic licences have been awarded in any case.
To complicate matters, those complexes which are residential can, in some cases, apply to become touristic. As I’ve said previously, this requires 100% agreement as well as jumping through various hoops as required, but in theory it is possible provided the comunidad establishes an asociación which would not only be the applicant for the licence, but also become the on-site agent should the licence be granted.
To further complicate matters, some complexes which are residential have statutes which expressly prohibit an application for touristic status even if there is unanimity: this is the case with a complex where I myself own an apartment.
The vote you are talking about might be that of residential complexes whose statutes did not prohibit an application, and where a vote on becoming touristic was a possibility. The problem is that it would take 100% agreement to make an application, and then an asociación would have to be formed … and then the comunidad would have to abide by whatever requirements were imposed to “bring it up to touristic standard”.
This forum page is so good, there is representation of every type of ownership and problem re letting and your knowledge Janet of each situation is just brilliant.
I for one, as a villa owner, had no idea of the diverse implications of complex law.
I am really looking forward to hearing the outcome of your meeting next week, as I am sure is everyone else involved. Thanks again for ALOTCA.
Jusr re read my post, I meant the law regarding complexes, not complex law! a bit ambiguous!
Just read a post on FB re AI holidays and how they are taking over the islands and the following was posted.
..”"I also asked a representative from the Spanish Tourist Board recently, who was agreeing that all inclusives were not a positive model for the Spanish economy, why they just didn’t go out on a limb and ban them. “We can’t do that, it is a free economy, they can do what they want”.”"
Thought this worthy of posting here as we all know a free economy is exactly what we don’t have!!!!
Canarian Government thiks says there are 2557 properties rented iligally on the Canaries, according to Spanish newspapers, after having a look at 7000 properties advertised on different websites. These figures are very low in comparison to the legal ones. Considering that 12 million tourists visited the Canaries last year, you can imagine how many supposed legal rooms and apartments there are. Therefore, unfortunately, private rentals is a question that Canarian Government doen’t care at all.
As Janet says, there are of course requirements to bring it up to touristic standard.
If still correct they can be found here,
http://www.gobiernodecanarias.org/boc/2010/204/001.html.
Apart from this,
click on the ‘Download’ at the bottom and the table of minimum equipment is on page 16.
Some things are easy to comply with, others less so, such as size of bathroom. Not much you can do if the bathroom is too small.
Then there are communal facilities to be taken into account. 100% of people might vote to become residential but not be so keen when it comes to paying for actual building works.
And it may not be a cheap exercise if an architect is required to draw plans, especially when they charge 611€ per sq.m. (This is not a dreamed up price but the cost as given by the Spanish School of Architects and as quoted to us.
I guess I am talking about older complexes in general which in my area they all are. I own two apartments and both were built in the early 1980s.
Seems we are stymied whichever way we look at it!
Just to clarify, the architect’s costs that I mention are not to do with communal facilities but for the apartment itself.
Some readers were having a problem with the formatting of this section because it’s getting so long, so I’ve changed the settings. Now, the most recent posts should always appear at the top of the page, and the most recent page will be the first one seen. It means scrolling to the bottom of the page to make a comment, but at least it’s easier to see who’s said what last … and hopefully it will make the formatting problem go away.
just to pick up on ”villa owners” post for costs to prepare a plan
the 600 or so euros per M2 will relate to the build cost which an
architect will submit when applying for a building license the end
build cost could be much higher,you can have a basic plan done
by a licensed tecnico at a cost between 100-200 euros no problem
with his approved stamp, it will be excepted anywhere ,town hall
notary etc.
Just in response to licensed tecnicos being able to provide turismo with a certified plan of an already built property (apartment/villa/etc), apparently a licences tecnico is no longer licensed do to that. They used to be able to but now it must be a certified architect.
I even had a licensed tecnico speak to turismo and plead our case, but he was refused. When I spoke to turismo and said that 4k€ was a bit steep to draw what amounted to a few box shapes, I was basically told that was tough luck.
responding to José (13 May 2012 at 8:56 am):
“Canarian Government thiks says there are 2557 properties rented illegally”.
I wonder where they get that figure from?
Within a few minutes of looking through the major listing sites (OD, HL, HA, Niumba etc) you can currently find over 20,000 adverts for private accommodation on the Islands. Add to that, the apartments which are offered by word of mouth and not advertised (I know of one owner who has 6 apartments which are never advertised).
I think that 30,000 would be a realistic estimate but it could be much higher – depending on how you define letting.
If they really thought that there were only two and a half thousand properties involved, I don’t think that they would bother with enforcement at all. Assuming 30,000 properties, with average 4 visitors per week and 70% occupancy, we have a figure of 4.3 million out of the islands’ 12 million annual tourists.
No way, José: the numbers are significant and the Canaries can’t afford to turn these visitors away.
The April arrivals data make pretty dire reading for most of the Canaries. A quick snapshot (i.e. before removing inter-island pax) show arrivals into ACE down 5.9% on 2011 for the first four months of the year (identical to the average for all Spanish airports), LPA, -3.5%; FUE, -8.1%; TFN, -5.3% and TFS, UP 1.4%.
What is more difficult to determine is a) whether total numbers to holiday destinations from originating markets (say the UK) have declined or whether such tourists are going elsewhere. Unfortunately, there is a 2-3 month lag before such information becomes available.
In reference to Mr Freeman’s explanaition, I would like to point out that most owners advertise their properties in a few websites. This means that you can find a specific apartment on 4 different websites. I don’t really think there are 30,000 private rentals on the Canaries. Of course there may be a lot more than those announced by Canarian Government.
I have made a few posts on Janet,s website but never took the trouble
to thank Janet for taking the trouble to set up this facility ,Janet I ,d just
like to THANK YOU for taking the trouble AND the time to do this !!
you,re a ”one off” I,ve lived here in Tenerife 26 yrs. and normally when
”gente”do this its all about ”THE MONEY”
Thank you Richard, that’s much appreciated, and Concerned Owner has said some lovely things too. Thank you both.
José, I don’t think you’re right. If you take a specific place (I used Jandia in Fuerte) and search on the major listing sites (OD, HL, HR, Niumba) for properties there, there are between 7 and 17 properties there on each one. But no overlap at all. You don’t see the same property advertised twice. I’m not surprised by that. The demand for accommodation is quite healthy and for most owners, the response to a single advert is sufficient.
So, I’m sticking to my estimate of 30,000+. The “plus” is because there are owners who don’t advertise at all and don’t intend to get an income from their properties but they do allow their properties to be used by friends and do sometimes accept money and are therefore technically breaking the law.
When we first bought our apartment 4 years ago it was purely for our own personal use, however, we were then presented with a whole list of bookings for the forthcoming first year of our ownership so we honoured these. From there we now have approximately half the year booked up with just 3 couples who have now become genuine friends. It’s proved to be such a wise investment and brought enjoyment to a lot of people that we did think about buying another apartment and doing the same…..until all this kicked off! Now we are hanging fire to see what happens which is a great shame as we were willing to invest again, provide some tourism, regular work for a cleaner, etc. For gods sake Canarian Government get your act in order! Just come up with a scheme whereby “private landlords” can legally rent out their apartment and charge everyone a reasonable annual fee to obtain some form of licence. It’s not rocket science and I’m sure most owners would be happy to pay each year to be deemed “legal” plus it would bring in a steady stream of revenue for the Government. Or am I just being too simplistic????
no craig you are not being simplistic at all, what you are asking for is commonsense and what happens all over the world, legal individual private letting with no sole agents and nothing complicated about it. However the problem is in my opinion, and after a few months of being involved with this you may agree with me. the whole crackdown was started by the canary government acting to help the hotels. This was following the crissis of 2008 when the hotels suffered a decline. The logic being all the illegal apartment customers, visible on internet ads, were the hotels lost customers. The whole crackdown is just hotel protectionism. I read many apartment owners posting how crazy the crackdown is and how harmful it is going to be to the canary economy , and I know that they are correct. I tend to notice with people who have just become affected by this that they logically argue that the canary government will see sense and reverse this crazy crackdown. The problem is with a government that has started this crackdown for the reasons that I think they have , well you can not rely on them to see their error and sort it out. If they had considered the entire canary people in their plans and took a measured view of things they would never have started the attack on small renters in the first place. This is spain, and in spain throughout history governments do not act in a consensual manner. Certain interset groups can get their way without consideration to the wider interest of the population.
I think that only by alotca getting the issue to europe court level will this be sorted. The whole irregular anti competitive nature of the canary letting laws should be able to be beaten at euro level. In the meantime the canary government may continue to act as they see is best for the hotels and what is best for the wider canary people and economy will count for nothing.
Yes Andrew I completely agree with you. I have very little sympathy with the hotels to be honest. As I’ve said before on here having stayed at some of them we were not impressed, didn’t feel we had value for money and certainly wouldn’t return or recommend them. I can only assume a lot of other people feel the same, hence the popularity of private rentals.
We did have plans in the future to retire to Tenerife by which time we would hopefully own several properties but this now seems unlikely. I’m just glad we are in the fortunate position not to have a mortgage on our apartment so we are not reliant on rental income to keep hold of it. Having said that we wouldn’t have a cat in hells chance of selling either at the moment so we are kind of in limbo.
The comments you make on the government over there hardly fills anyone with faith I have to say. And they say the UK is in a mess!
Does no one have any sympathy for those people that purchased on a “Residential” Complex in the hope of living there without the constant comings and goings of Tourists.
Yes, Derek, I think that most of us do!
In the end, I think that democracy has to prevail, so on a complex where most of the owners want to stay residential, then holiday letting should not be allowed. On a complex where the majority don’t want to be restricted to residential only then letting should be allowed.
There will always be some people unhappy with the wishes of the majority. There will always be some troublesome visitors too (e.g. friends and family of owners or even the owners themselves who can make noise in the night, leave litter and generally be a nuisance) even in a complex that is deemed residential.
If you’re an owner on a residential site, it’s in your interest to get this miserable law sorted out. The value of your property has probably dropped by 20-30% in the past 18 months and that’s nothing to do with the general economic troubles. It’s the effect that the Tourism Protectionism Law has had on property values.
So, Derek, please join us in the campaign to get common sense restored.
I second all what B.F. is saying in his last post I have sympathy with all
owners who have found themselves in the present mess lots of owners
were mis-sold their apartments without repeating all whats already been said ,one problem is if the holiday makers don,t stay on residential complex,s
who will ?,Derek might think his new neighbors will be similar to him
but in reality,the only people around and they,re thin on the ground are
workers who multiple share to be able to pay the rent working all hours
and ladies of the night!!Derek be careful what you wish for!!
derek, there are a whole bunch of people who bought on new complexes whom were told they could rent out. in fact, i should prefer holiday makers on my complex than ‘apartment sharers’ who pay very little, fill the balcony with white goods and people sleeping all night out there, drop cigarette butts into the balconys below……..
the government is stopping holiday makers renting apartments, therefore the owners will have to rent to someone to cover costs. i know many owners with whom this whole thing has ‘left a bad taste in their mouth’ and are quite happy to hold their hands up, and take any old long rent just to be rid of the whole situation.
this is long term scary for ‘residents’.
Derek’s comment “the constant comings and goings of tourists”…….oh please! Do residents not make a single noise then? Our neighbour on our complex who lives there all year round has his tv blaring all day and night yet we have never once complained even though others have. Try exerting some tolerance Derek! Not all tourists are rowdy you know. Decent ones treat places with respect.
Bugger. Committee meeting postponed again. Sorry everyone.
Oh what a pity meeting postponed again! hope not too long before rescheduled.
I was talking to a friend today about the situation and they were totally unaware of this law and just said ‘well if you need a licence get one!’ so I replied ‘ that is the whole point, I have tried and am told, no, none are being issued’ to which he was totally incredulous and said he’d heard it all now, that you can still be fined by the same people who are denying you the means to avoid the same.
Difficult to get through really to anyone not involved!
Got an email today from holiday lettings seems they have heard of the troubles and as the have lost £340 a year from us multiply that by all the cancelled adds they will be loosing a fortune ! Just shows that word is travelling
Derek in response absolutely we had the choice of resident but choose one where we were told we could legally rent I have every sympathy for these other owners , they could afford to buy without income but we couldn’t which is why we choose ours.
Yes, Diane, I was speaking with A Place in the Sun today. They have some sort of connection with holiday lettings, not sure what exactly, but they’re now going to be doing a “big piece” on the whole issue. Word is indeed travelling.
Concerned Owner – yes, it beggars belief. What beggars belief most of all is that our tourism is being ruined by the very authorities who are charged with protecting and promoting it. Unbelievable.
Continuing re my conversation with a friend yesterday, he says if the law cannot be complied with because the means of compliance is denied by the same authority surely fining is impossible? I found that hard to answer!!!
Sadly, the answer is simple. Residential properties could never be let commercially for holidays, so it’s not a case of being able or unable to “comply” with the law. The fact is that commercial lets in residential properties have always been illegal – so it’s like saying that burglary has always been illegal and it’s ridiculous that they don’t give burglary licences. The argument would go “surely if the law on burglary cannot be complied with because it’s illegal then they can’t arrest burglars … they’d do it legally if they could …”.
If something’s prohibited by law it’s not possible to counter it with an argument to reason. In this case, reason is on our side, but it’s no answer. When you compare it with burglary, hopefully it clarifies it. So, it’s not impossible to answer; ridiculous, yes, but not impossible.
is there a time lapse on the amount of time the canarian government can fine an owner – eg. if an owner realised 6 months ago that to advertise for holiday lets was illegal and immediatly ceased that ad, can this ad still be brought to task 12 months after it was ceased?
No, Sarah, there doesn’t seem to be a limit.
Where does the figure of 7,600 people that have received fines actually come from. Is it an official number or is this just a guess?
Official Government figures.
With regard to your previous comment that the “100% rule to become touristic” is incorrect because “the law states 50% + 1″, you are confusing two laws. One requires a sole agent to achieve 50%+1 in order to operate – but that assumes a complex is touristic in the first place. To become touristic, if lapsed or residential, a comunidad requires 100% agreement to make the transition to touristic. It is only then that the 50%+1 rule comes into play for an agent.
I have been catching up this morning on recent posts. The clarification regarding the aims of ALOTCA is helpful.
The complex my property pre dates the 95 law, it is described as residential, but long standing owners have disputed that that is correct. I think I at least understand the confusion. Presumably there was a vote at some point. This is supported by the fact that the water supply is at touristic rates!
We found the complex by renting an apartment in 2000, there were lots available, and this has always been the case. When we started our purchase we had no idea about the law and the only reason we felt we could afford it was because we could rent to get some help towards the mortgage. Our agent did tell us the law had changed, but gave us the but everyone does it, the lawyers too mentioned it but with a nod and a wink – some previously booked lets we’re specifically mentioned in our contract to purchase!
Many owners would vote for touristic licence, but there are a very small minority, who purchased knowing that 90per cent or more were let (half the site was owned by a holiday company at that time!) who are against it.
My concern is that if the 100percent rules apply then one or two individuals could prevent an applicatioin to convert, which does not seem democratic at all.
Would it be possible Janet to push this point through ALOTCA to campaign for proper democracy on such decisions. At least We could get to apply to be touristic. Hopefully this would not be too far from the remit to alter?
thanks agin for the site!
David
The trouble is, I’m afraid, that it is too far from the remit. As I stressed, we cannot as an asociación (at least not at the start) campaign to make legal that which is clearly illegal. I agree with you about the undemocratic nature of the situation you describe, but the law as it stands allows that tiny minority on a residential complex to call the tune.
As I said in a previous comment:
I had a conversation with someone today who used to run a property management company, looking after almost 100 properties, villas and apartments that rented to tourists. Almost without exception none had licences. He said to me that from solely that businesses point of view dozens of associated jobs would be lost if this law continues.
He bought vans, had them maintained, so garages would lose out, laundries would lose masses of clients, he would renew linen, china, leisure goods, garden furniture etc on a regular basis, people hiring cots, extra beds, pool maintenace staff, gardeners, the list is endless and that from 1 business, multiply that across the islands and the unemployment rates soars! this is before you add in the loss of revenue that those tourists spend in the bars, restaurants, car hire etc etc job losses soar again!
I would have thought, even with the arrogance the Canarian Goverment are showing that pure common sense would show them that if they pursue the court route rather than revoke the law they are going to look very stupid!
It also appears that as the word is getting around, residents in ‘residential’ complexes are reporting fellow owners who let to tourists now that they know it will be stopped. A can of worms!!!!!
Janet
Thank you for the clarification.
I understand where your boundary lies.
I confess I do not fully understand the legal line drawn ( not seeking to make legal what is clearly illegal) probably because I do not understand enough of the law.
It seems to me that your aim is precisely that – to Allow people who cannot technically let at present however fine that definition ( because they can’t use the sole agency or don’t have one) so that they can let legally without that requirement. Ie you are seeking a tweak change to the law to allow the illegal to become legal
My own request is also for a tweak to the law, regarding the democratic process. Not seeking to make legal what is not
I suspect that her are many in a similar position to us (around 100 on our complex alone)
The campaign surely needs the maximum support it can get. Under its current definition people in my position would have to be very careful about offering public support because a victory would not fix our situation, and we would have identified ourselves in he process .
It seems the current line will rule out significant numbers from offering public support for the campaign. Which would be a shame.
I agree with David……….what’s the point in a campaign if it isn’t going to benefit everyone? People like us who have apartments on a “residential” complex still won’t be legal whatever the outcome of this campaign as it currently stands.
And I’m glad to see Derek has piped down!
I’ve said this several times before so, in brief …
it is technically possible for some (not all) residential complexes to apply for touristic status already. The law allows this. The law places an onerous burden in requiring 100% agreement, but that is the condition the law imposes.
Residential complexes are just that. Residential. Tourism law utterly prohibits private commercial exploitation. As said in the paragraph above, if a complex doesn’t like this, it can apply for touristic status … providing it meets the conditions laid down.
So no legal change needed other than the 100% vote – and that is not a touristic issue, but an urban property one. How can a tourism lobbying asociación lobby on something that isn’t part of its remit to an authority that itself is not responsible for the issue anyway.
We are concerned instead with the technically “legal but stymied” group. Those who own villas for which there might be no urban restriction on touristic use but where a licence is merely withheld because of a moratorium.
We are concerned instead for those very many owners of already touristic properties who are abused daily by bullying cynical sole agents.
We are concerned instead for these islands and the local businesses that will be so affected by a protectionist and outdated touristic model that will shepherd “upmarket” clients into golf and spa all-inclusives … and we can all go to pot for the rest.
I’m sorry but we are not going to take on a lobby on behalf of something outside the legal remit of both the asociación and the laws we are trying to negotiate changes to. And once again I say – there is much more involved here than “residential complexes”.
Whilst I sympathise with the situation in ‘residential’ complexes, it has always been up to the comunidad surely to decide on how the whole complex is run, nothing this ‘law’ says had changed that?
However, with complexes that have licences and are being exploited by the sole agents and freehold villas with sole owners this law has denied them their civil right to rent to tourists provided certain criterion are met.
I agree that for ALOTCA to encompass every situation is impractical and probably would compromise the outcome of what it is trying to achieve.
In response Janet about residential complexes…….having had our apartment for 4 years and visited on numerous occasions then it’s pretty obvious that the number of actual residents compared to holidaymakers is very low. If it wasn’t for the holidaymakers the complex would be virtually deserted. And if we are to be regarded as residential then why is there a pool bar, lifeguard, gym, kids club, etc provided? These are hardly services that a resident would want are they? Just as an example of the 8 apartments we share our immediate space with there is ONE resident (and I should add he is the noisiest of everyone as he is almost deaf and has his tv blaring constantly!). All the others are rented out to holidaymakers.
And yes before you say it I’m well aware that the licence refers to when the complex was built probably 25 years ago! I’m just making the point that the complex is nothing like a residential one. There’s even a timeshare section with its own office so how can that be allowed?
Sorry but I’m just sick of the constant “but you’re on a residential complex so legally you cannot rent out” being spouted. We all know that on the complex but what on earth are we supposed to do other than roll over and let the useless out-of-touch Government make a holy mess of things??
Just something that the people who would like to change from Residential to Tourist need to think about, as it has not had much mention, COSTINGS.
24 hour reception required.
Trained Lifeguards at all times the pool is open
Higher spec fire regulations, (very very expensive to implement)
Minimum apartment standards.
So community fees would be much higher than at present, and these increased fees would also have to be paid by the Residents.
Craig, I agree with you … and personally I would see this changed. But we have to differentiate between our own personal views and those of a legally registered Spanish asociación. Everything in good time.
Can you honestly say Derek that all hotel rooms are to the required standard? If they are then that standard must be pretty poor. Obviously I can’t speak for all apartment owners but if any of them are like us then they regard their property as a second home and therefore would furnish it and ensure it is of high quality. We spent over 10,000 euros on refurbishing ours and that’s just on a studio apartment so i am pretty sure it is of a much higher standard than some of the grotty hotel rooms we have stayed in. Tourists nowadays want home comforts and a bit of quality, not to be stuck in some souless room with the bare minimum facilities. Why else would private rentals be so popular in the first place?
And sorry Janet I wasn’t having a personal dig. Just frustrated as I’m sure many more are.
I would agree that most (not all, especially the older ones) of the residential apartments would have standards well exceeding what is required. It is the huge costs needed to comply with the other requirements, that would create a problem.
Derek said:
“24 hour reception required.
Trained Lifeguards at all times the pool is open
Higher spec fire regulations, (very very expensive to implement)
Minimum apartment standards.”
This really highlights how the tight regulation is totally ineffective. In our complex (a tourist complex) the lifeguard is paid for by the comunidad (not by the explotación) and is rarely seen except on occasions in the bar. It is a joke. However, no doubt when the complex is inspected by Turismo, he is magically there on duty.
I’m yet to work out how a 24-hour reception would be any use to a visitor to a PRIVATE apartment. Private guests arrive with a key and don’t use reception. If they have any problems, they use the phone. This idea that tourists need a reception comes from the days before mobile phones.
Fire regulations are a big expense for tourist complexes. Again, it’s a sham. The only time there was a fire in an apartment in our complex, it occurred one day after the monthly maintenance visit and system test. The fire alarm failed due to water in the wiring and the apartment was wrecked.
Along with deregulation of tourist accommodation, we need a reform of these regulations too. One won’t make sense without the other.
Regulations which were meant to raise standards have had the opposite effect as far as I can see. Standards drop because it’s too easy for the hotel companies to tick boxes without providing true quality. Because of the Protectionism Law, they don’t have to compete with other accommodation providers and so standards drop.
The only effective driver of standards is TripAdvisor and the like.
Hi Craig, I know you weren’t having a personal dig, no apology necessary. I fully understand how frustrated you must be … as you say, many more are, and I am myself at the shortsighted and (literally) insular view coming out of Turismo.
“Tourists nowadays want home comforts and a bit of quality, not to be stuck in some souless room with the bare minimum facilities. Why else would private rentals be so popular in the first place?” (Craig, 19/5, 2.20pm). I could not have put it better myself. Does anybody really consider the provision of internet, flat screen TV, books, DVDs and a kitchen where you can actually cook a meal to be luxuries nowadays? Judging by some of the places I have stayed in during trips to LZ, the answer is clearly “yes”!
Hi Janet
How many members is there now with alotca? I seem to remember 15000 was needed, are we near this figure? Any idea when there will be another meeting open to the public…
Good question Carol, if more signatures are needed we can all help!
Hi Carol, until we have another committee meeting I just don’t know. We’re all collecting and collating separately, and we need a meeting to be able to combine figures.
We don’t need 15,000 members for the asociación. We would need 15,000 for the petition. That’s the number the government sets for a petition to be made. The asociacion, Alotca, doesn’t have a set figure – but we want to have enough to make it evident that it will be worth launching the petition.
I have a question and hopefully, somebody can help. Accommodation statistics from ISTAC are divided into three, sometimes for categories: “hoteles o aparthoteles” (obvious), “viviendas propias o casas de amigos o familiares” (ditto), “extrahoteleros” and “otros tipos de alojamientos”.
I am trying to work out whether privately let villas would appear in the third or fourth category: does anybody have a view on this? I think it’s the last category but would appreciate help on this. Thanks!
Private villas would be “Viviendas propias” (=own accommodation). “Otros tipos” would be other than hotels or personal residence, so would encompass campsites, traditional rural houses/hotels, etc.
Hi all. Sorry to be a pain but does anyone have the website address where you can check if you have a fine. I saw it here I think but have lost it
Thank you in advance
Hi Joan, the website of the BOC is HERE, but it would be a mammoth task checking every day and all the entries. If you just go onto google, or yahoo, or any search engine, and type in your NIE and “BOC”, any fine listed will show up as a result. Bear in mind that the only ones in the BOC are those where letters couldn’t be delivered.
Thank you Janet
Well Ashotel had their first meeting with the Government to try to get an exemption from the rise in IGIC … and looks like they failed. They’re not giving up, but the Government seems to have said the rise, across the board, is essential. The report is HERE from Ashotel itself. I find this hopeful: the hotel lobby apparently isn’t all powerful, after all.
I’ve just made another visit to the colacampaign website.
It has had a major re-vamp but more importantly, the people behind it now don’t seem to be involved in a major money-making exercise.
I think it’s worth reading what they have to say. It certainly makes a lot more sense than their first attempt.
In particular, I think that they make an interesting point about those who have been fined: the fine victims are not shouting about the problem and that’s probably because they need to sell their properties and don’t want to put buyers off.
One of the main aims of COLA is to warn owners. I think that’s an excellent thing to do though it still irks me that warning owners is doing the work of the Turismo for them. But it needs to be done. I’m not sure that COLA is going about it in the most efficient way though.
I think that the best way to warn owners is to get about 200 volunteers or conscripts – owners who are already aware and want to get something done, and ask each of them to make 5 fake enquiries per day on the listing sites in order to gather the email addresses of the owners. Then, send a carefully worded message out to those owners. The whole process would take about 20 days and it would reach the majority of owners.
What do we all think about that?
The BOC is a busy document the last 2 days.
For 21 May, it seems to be appeal outcomes. I may well be wrong on that because my understanding of legalese Spanish is pretty poor. For 22 May there seems to be a mix of new fines and appeals.
I took one of the “appeal”(?) notices and googled an owners name + the apartment complex name. Yes, there’s an original fine, issued in Feb of 18000 and the notice on 21 May is for 13,800. So I guess an appeal is what it was.
But I was shocked to see what else Google found: 3 current adverts for that apartment on listing sites.
How does that work? Surely, if the owner has appealed, she knows about the fine. If she knows about the fine and continues to advertise (and has very good occupancy by the look of it) she must be crazy.
B Freeman, I would be very wary of COLA! if it is the guy who we think it is behind it, he is very clever! rest assured they are after your money albeit by a less obvious route! wouldn’t trust him further than I could throw him. Have a look at Lanzarote Information, a site run by Jules and Mike Cliffe Jones and find the article written last month about ‘COLA, is it a scam?’ they knew this guy of old, be warned!
Also, I think warning owners may be a waste of time, I warned one recently who is also a friend and it was just ignored, to some degree we are all in denial and hope it won’t happen to us, but we mustn’t ‘roll over’ to this legislation and fight tooth and nail to get it revoked. Why should Canary Island owners not be part of what is possible in the rest of the world?
Thanks, Concerned. I read the article. I’ll keep an open mind about COLA. It’s worth keeping an eye on the website and I’ve signed up for their free newsletter. I’m not considering paying them any money (I don’t have any!).
Back on the subject of warning owners, I know some will be in denial. I spent a couple of months in denial. That was because there were reports in the press every 2 years or so about increasing the number of inspectors from 3 to 13 or 15 (they always go for odd numbers for some reason) and each time, nothing happened. It’s not until Janet pointed me to the BOC that I really sat up and took notice.
I expect that the owner you mentioned who didn’t want to know, is slowly taking it in and working out what to do.
If an owner is warned, it’s totally their own choice whether they continue to advertise and risk being fined. If we don’t warn, then they are not given that choice. I think that warning is morally the right thing to do but there’s another reason I think it’s necessary: any action that either ALOTCA or the general community of owners may decide to take in the future will be very much stronger if we have significant numbers of people working together.
B Freeman, I received 2 ‘odd’ enquiries which rambled on for days, but ultimately they asked for my licence number. I have strong suspicions they were COLA because shortly after that I got a phone call from ‘a Gran Canaria owner’ who tried to con me out of 500 euros to be ‘helped’!
I also contaced ‘Owners Direct’ who although sympathetic, have not contacted any of the owers advertising with them, obviously because their revenues would suffer.
I feel until ALOTCA have a meeting ( please soon!!!!) we have to wait and see what they recommend.I know how frustrating it is, but I do trust Janet and her team.
I note also that there are fines on the Boletin for owners who have advertised with ‘James Villas.’
It seems interesting that the Tourismo use the word ‘proportionality’ in the fines notices but yet every appeal seems to have the same result – a reduction from 18000 euros to 13800 so it is clear that any mitigation is completely futile apart from gaining an ‘across the board’ fines reduction.
The fines for residential complexes are also the same as for Touristic and I see that there is a fine on Altamira for not using the exploitation company. You would have thought that when levels of seriousness are assessed, a complex with a full touristic licence would attract a lesser fine – especially as the poster for reporting complaints is on display in Reception albeit that the apartment may not be registered with the Tourismo.
The ferocity of this campaign is quite startling and thank goodness there are organisations such as ALOTCA who are prepared to take this on.
Another concern is, webpages that are being used as evidence for the initial fines are sometimes well over 12 months old, meaning that even where an owner has removed their apartment from advertisements, they are still liable to be fined. Clearly they have printed thousands and are drip feeding them at will – this is certainly a very well planned revenue raising operation!
Lanzarote Guide Book has published figures for April. Tourists visiting the island are down 14.42%, the lowest figure for 2 years. This equates to 23,000 visitors, and the Canarian Government want to stop private letting, do they have any braincells?????
I’m shortly going to put a post on to that sort of general effect … how foolish are they?
I’ve just had another thought! I know that’s dangerous! what if we all refused to pay the fines, could we do a jail sentence rather than the fine be imposed on the property? we could fill the jails!!!
no, sadly not an option. Unpaid fines get charged against the properties …
I agree with B Freeman regarding his 12-02 comment that we should be warning other owners by emailing them – in fact I have been thinking of doing it myself. Even if people decide to carry on advertising (which I am still doing myself at the moment – maybe not for long though) it is still making more and more people aware and that’s got to be a good thing. I’m also concerned however that Alotca is not going to be helping people such as myself, ie those of us renting in a so called ‘residential’ complex – and I think I’m not alone in this.
I am also amazed at the lack of knowledge locally about this subject, which includes many owners. I asked a friend who lives in Tenerife and who first alerted me to this law what he had heard about it recently and his response was – nothing – in fact he said it had all gone very quiet recently! I trawled through all the local papers on line and found absolutely nothing on the subject. Considering we are all so worried and discussing these impending actions, it seems in Tenerife there is hardly any mention of it! Can’t we get more publicity for the subject somehow?
Also a question Janet – we own our apartment through a Tenerife registered company. I have tried the Google search using both our NIE numbers followed by BOC and also our company CIF number but I just get an invalid search. Could you confirm the exact format to search and also confirm if it should work with a CIF number.
Hi Karen, we’ve tried to get it in the press, but nada. They’re not going with it, for reasons that we just don’t get. I suspect it might be different if we end up, as seems likely, having to appeal to the Courts.
To search, just try your NIEs and BOC – NIEs in the form a1234567b, no spaces nor symbols. Then try the CIF separately with BOC. You shouldn’t get an invalid search, but hopefully you won’t get any results!
Have to agree with Karen and there doesn’t seem to be the same concern on Tenerife as there is over here which I find quite odd. When we were over there earlier this month it was more a case of “oh yeah they are fining people but you know what it’s like over here and it’ll probably all blow over eventually”. Kind of sums up Tenerife and the Spanish way of life! Can the Government not get their teeth into other things now? I’m sure plenty more illegal things go on over there. Seem to remember one night walking past Veronicas and seeing all the touts/PR’s huddled together on a street corner NOT hassling anyone….then spotted the 2 police cars a few yards away! I’m sure half of these annoying touts have outstayed their welcome on the island so why not focus their attention on getting rid of them all and letting people actually choose if they want to visit a venue? Same with all the guys selling the crappy fake watches, sunglasses, cd’s, etc. What revenue are they bringing into the country as nobody buys their rubbish anyway! Sorry for going off on a tangent but just think there are ways the Government could make Tenerife more appealing rather than trying to damage what tourism it is clinging on to!
janet, you say that if a fine cannot be paid, it is lodged against the property, i presume to be paid upon sale of said property?
i have had my property on the market for quite a while now, purely because of this ‘law’. considering nobody has viewed and no apartments are selling where i am, the government will be a long time waiting for a payment….. and, i can honestly say, that the market is flat where we are due to the amount of apartments which have suddenly become available, and nobody is buying as you cannot rent to help with costs ….. watch out all the community members…. i can forsee a lot of empty apartments, a lot of unpaid community fees, all waiting for a sale to pay out debts…..
what is the canarian government thinking of? meanwhile will we create an elephants graveyard….
Yes, it would have to be cleared prior to signing – a notary wouldn’t allow the transfer without the charge being formally cleared. Of course, if there were subsequent charges, the total of which exceeded the fiscal value of the property, the Government could go for repossession.
Re Janet’s latest post, it is so unbelievable that the government has all these powers ( including repossession!!) from a law that IS flawed! it seems that they have no desire to change it in any way and the only outcome is the long route through the courts, but by then, will there be an industry to save?? PLEASE, ALOTCA have a meeting the suspense re progress/or not is killing!
Hi,
According to the following post:
“21 May 2012 at 3:59 pm
Hi Joan, the website of the BOC is HERE, but it would be a mammoth task checking every day and all the entries. If you just go onto google, or yahoo, or any search engine, and type in your NIE and “BOC”, any fine listed will show up as a result. Bear in mind that the only ones in the BOC are those where letters couldn’t be delivered.”
I have searched Google with my NIE number (X******) followed by ‘BOC’, as suggested and received no search results. Is there any other way to check, or can I assume I currently have no fine against me?
Thank you, Ian.
the really sad thing about the april tourist figures is that in my opinion many canary business owners , restuarants etc, still are unaware that their government has started a policy to close down all the private rented apartments. When we were on holiday in April and talking in some los cristo restuarants, the locals were blissfully unaware of the situation. Clearly what we are seeing now is a decline in hotel occupancy due to re emergence of Egypt /N africa resorts post revolution , and in addition the canary governments own policy to destroy its private apartment letting industry. The combination of the two is going to be devasting to the canary economy and in regards to their own policy on private renting , completely self inflicted.
I know from my own experience that a private renter can not get summer bookings without internet ads. These have largely been pulled. Many owners are not even trying to rent , they are respecting the canary law and are not letting at all, some are trying to sell up. The 30 hotels worth of private apartments that senor Escobedo has talked about are not getting customers for the islands. All this was predictable and many have writen about it. In my opinion Alotca needs to try to get the message through in the canaries to the locals that their government has contributed massively to the tourist reduction with its crazy crackdown on private renting.
Agreed, Andrew.
Please, people, don’t fret about the postponed committee meeting. It is just a committee meeting and it doesn’t reflect on any progress (or lack of it). We have submitted the third appeal direct to the President of the Government even though, at present, he is refusing to acknowledge calls for a meeting. It was hoped to back up the appeal in person, but it looks as though this will not be possible.
This suggests that this third stage of the first phase of the appeal process is not going to be very successful. We might be pleaseantly surprised, of course, but if things go as we anticipate, then the second phase will come into play for those owners who want to take their appeal to the Courts rather than settle up.
Just one other thing while I’m here. I’m having trouble today getting into the gubbins behind the blog, the admin bit, so cannot add new news posts, cannot approve new comments of people who are posting for the first time. I’ve reported this to my hosting chap and hopefully it will be resolved soon, today ideally!
Craig and Karen re your comments – when you say there is more concern “over here” than in Tenerife itself do I assume you live in Britain and own apartments here in Tenerife? When you say “more concern” what do you exactly mean – I have not seen anything in the media in Britian although I live here so do not check everyday – have you seen anything?
So from your last post Janet, you get 15 days to appeal and then some fines have been reduced to 13,800-ish, but you can still appeal through the courts? surely there’s a time limit to this? and if not, if all 7,500 owners so far fined got together to appeal ( is this feasible?) costs would be substantially reduced to do so?
A class action is certainly possible and the lawyers are presently looking into this possibility. I don’t know about a time limit for appeal to the Courts, but it will not be a problem given that the appeal to the Government must be concluded before one starts through the judiciary.
A class action, sorry, didn’t know the term! that sounds encouraging. I was wondering why all these people were not shouting ‘injustice’ from the rooftops, perhaps this is why?
What would a class action entail. Surely it would cost money – would people be prepared to pay? The problem I see is that those with fines don’t seem to be telling anyone and they are all going off in different directions using different lawyers etc to defend them. Is there not a way of gathering all these people together. Have all or any of you commenting on here yet been fined or just concerned that you will receive one? I for one have already received a fine.
Hi Ian, you can assume that no fine has been published in the BOC. This is, however, different to assuming that you have no fine. The fines are published in the BOC only when delivery of the letter version has failed. It is possible that you have a letter somewhere waiting for collection. These should be returned undelivered if there is no-one to sign for them, but I have known them stuffed into a letter box without a signature.
What address does your comunidad administrators/President have for you? If you are sure that you have no such mail at whatever address that is, and there is also no fine published in the BOC, then you can be confident that you have not been fined.
Yes Micky we do live in the UK and own an apartment on Tenerife. What I mean is that having spoken to people when we were last over on Tenerife they seemed to know less about it that I do 2000 miles away! And no I haven’t read anything about it in the UK press either but there is plenty of information available on the internet. I first heard about it over a year ago through the agents who were purchased our property through and have since kept in touch with it through this website and Tenerife Forum.
Micky said: “The problem I see is that those with fines don’t seem to be telling anyone and they are all going off in different directions using different lawyers etc to defend them. Is there not a way of gathering all these people together”
One reason for not telling anyone is that they want to sell their apartments. Shouting about the injustice won’t help them to sell.
I totally agree that they need to gather together. The lawyers that Janet works with probably have the biggest gathering of victims, so that goes some way towards getting people organised. However, there are loads of others who don’t read these pages. There are plenty who have been fined and don’t know it and are carrying on business as usual. There’s even one, as I pointed out yesterday, who has been fined and knows it and is carrying on business as usual. And of course, there are others who have been fined and have either just paid or are just hoping it will go away.
Most of the owners that I know on our complex are seriously elderly. They make little use of the web. They don’t read Canarian newspapers. They’ve got no chance of finding out unless someone tells them. I feel very sorry for these people who may occasionally let friends and friends of friends use their apartments and unknowingly risk a fine that they could never afford to pay.
As I keep saying, I think that we should mobilise ourselves to make contact and spread the bad news but at the same time, gather the contact details so that we can communicate with each other more easily when we need to in the future. Currently, we seem to be divided and conquered.
Janet, thank you for your reply. The difficulty I have is that my enquiry about my NIE only elicits the response ” no such document has been found” suggesting my NIE number does not exist even though I use the number given on my Urbana. I’m fairly certain I have been fined because many of my associates have so I guess the only way to find out is to trawl through the BOC lists on a daily basis.
I’ve been fined recently, registered delivered letter in England. I was also unaware of illegal letting until tourism turned up on the complex and took my details last June.
My fine came through in march.
All I can tell you is what my solicitor told me last week as I am on appeal.
My fine was 18k.
Some previous cases that he has had are now time barred, as if you appeal, and it’s not answered in 6 months turismo are time barred from doing anything. If you fall into this category, Turismo will however keep details on file and fines of 30k will be next if you are found again.
Some fines have been reduced by £3k.
My appeal includes the following as mitigation…Internet no proof used as holiday let, impact on local business, impact on property prices, all fined 18k is illegal in itself, it should be individual not across the board, why 18k for a 1st offence not a warning or much smaller fine…amongst other things.
I have paid 880 euro’s to appeal.
I’ve been told that if this appeal doesn’t give the results I want, it could mean appealing again and eventually end up in court.
My lawyer has 50 or so cases at different levels in the process.
I now want to sell up as this has left a sour taste in the mouth. I pay taxes in England and Spain, and in my opinion, if the Canarian government don’t look at what this is doing to its economy, tenerife will be a ghost town within a matter of a few years.
I hope I’m wrong as I love the island, but if this continues, investment will dry up, jobs will go and people who go will end up in all inclusive hotels and never spend.
My complex alone would have 80% empty accommodation throughout the year, pool bar closed, no sunbed money. The list goes on..
Oh dear, Ian. If you google your NIE and “BOC” and still find nothing, then you can at least be sure it’s not in the BOC, at least not yet. It might still be published of course, or there could be a letter somewhere for you, or on its way to you.
I have read here there are 7,500 fines so far. I don’t know where people take that information from. I read Canarian newspapers online every day. The last time I could read something with regard to this subject was on 23rd September. On that occasion it was said Turismo had found 2,557 illegal properties out of a research where 7000 properties were involved. In my opinion, no more than 500 people have already been fined. Inspectors work very slowly and they have a lot of work. Sometimes the fine arrives one year after the inspection. Those who have been fined or are at risk could rent their apartments long term (minimum 6 months) instead of selling. Of course this is not so profitable but it is a way of getting some money and enjoy the property from time to time. Selling is not recommendable nowadays. Properties are now about 30% cheaper than four years ago on the Canaries.
The figure of 7,500 is from the Government itself, so your opinion that the fines number only 500 is at complete odds with official figures. It doesn’t matter whether it’s been in the papers or not, and in fact the papers have been completely remiss in failing to report this adequately.
With regard to income, you need also to consider those owners who have mortgaged themselves heavily and for whom a long-term let will not yield sufficient income to cover the mortgage.
I am completely in agreement with B Freeman with regards to warning other owners and I share his concern, particularly with regards to elderly owners who have no knowledge of this law. I am prepared to just go ahead and start emailing people, but, what concerns me is how to go about it. You mention sending fake enquiries to get the people’s email addresses, but I am trying to imagine my reaction if I answered an enquiry only to be told it was fake. I think I would be suspicious even before I started to read any further emails from that ‘enquirer’. What I was considering was using the 500 character field available as a ‘message to the owner’ which is available on my site, Holiday Rentals, and cutting and pasting a simple message explaining the situation, referring them to Janet’s site and inviting them to come back to me if they wished. Does B Freeman not think this worthwhile or would I be wasting my time! I welcome his (or her!) comments.
Karen, I’m definitely a “him”.
The listing sites won’t like it, and all the significant ones have anti-abuse software in place to detect large numbers of similar enquiries. So, with the same text to each owner in the message box, you’ll only get about 5 through before you are blocked! That’s a guess, but I am by trade a programmer involved in web sites and that’s how they need to work because every little vulnerability will get exploited.
So, in order to do this, we need to at least vary the message. But then, their systems will detect too many enquiries from the same IP address. That’s where we would need to get organised. If there are several of us doing it, and sharing the list so that we don’t duplicate, at a rate of just a few per day each per listing site, it could be possible.
Next problem as you rightly point out is how to broach the subject. I don’t think it’s possible to summarise the situation succinctly, so I would favour making an enquiry for availability and then, like most enquirers, don’t respond. A few days later, we can send an email with a full explanation.
I’m prepared to put some time into it. If others are, please say so. Janet: do you have any objection to a programme of informing and collecting email addresses?
Karen, Holiday Rentals have been in contact with me to find out what this is all about so I will be speaking with them tomorrow as I am an agent and did have more than 20 properties on their site (so a massive income loss for them) I will let you know what they say.
B Freeman, 11kidder and anyone else that wants us to all know each other – I am going to be the first one to give out this online my email address is mandrholt@yahoo.co.uk if you wish to mail me directly. Anyone else who has received a fine and wishes to group together then why don’t we all fight together. Whilst this website is a great information provider (for which we thank Janet) but we are all working independently and anonymously.
BF, no, I don’t object. All I would say before you put too much work into this is to give it a week or so … I did an interview with A Place in the Sun last week and they’re bringing something “big” out, they say, and it will have some sort of connection with Holiday Lettings. In this respect, I’m intrigued by Micky’s comment that they’ve just been in touch with him (unless Holiday Rentals is something different).
I don’t know what they’re planning, exactly, but I agreed to do the interview because they were interested, and concerned. By the end of it, they were alarmed. I would just suggest hanging fire and seeing what they come up with.
But no, apart from that, no objection as such, at all.
Janet in answer to your query Holiday Lettings is one website, Holiday Rentals is another, Owners Direct is another that allow owners to buy advertising space to rent their properties and A Place in the Sun is a TV programme that sells properties. So all major organisations all with the similar type of advertising but all separate.
A Place in the Sun is more than just a TV programme. I believe. They must publish something, and the person who interviewed me last week clearly said there was some connection with Holiday Lettings. It was just Holiday Rentals I hadn’t heard of.
I think it would be just great if all owners could join up and man up and defy this legislation. If we all continued to advertise, continued to let and totally refused to abide by an unjust and unsound law, did our utmost to get this out the National newspapers worldwide, what could they do?
By joining ALOTCA we are stating our objection to this obnoxious witch hunt of people who are contributing to the economy of the Canary Islands in so many ways. The only glitch I see is those who do not contribute to the tax system would wish to remain anonymous, but they must realise that you can’t have the penny and the bun!
However, this approach would have to be 100% supported, ie, we all ‘come out’ but expect this would never happen!
I have just found the following on ‘rightmove uk’
A sign that hard-up governments across Europe are eager to rake in cash however they can, the authorities in the Canary Islands are cracking down on owners who rent out their properties illegally by issuing hefty fines.
The law governing holiday rentals in the Canaries, which includes Tenerife, Lanzarote and Gran Canaria, states that if a property is within a complex classed as “residential” it cannot under any circumstances be used for holiday lets. On the other hand, an apartment classed as “touristic” can be rented out for holidays, so long as all rentals go through a sole agent chosen to handle lettings on that complex.
Aware that the law is often flouted, the regional government in the Canaries recently increased the number of inspectors employed to enforce this rule, resulting in a number of owners and rental agencies being punished with fines.
Touristic apartments can also be let on a long-term, residential basis, or be used by friends and family independently of an agent because such use does not qualify as commercial holiday letting. By the same token, residential apartments cannot be let out commercially and there is, naturally, no on-site agent. But there is nothing to stop properties being used by friends and family for holidays, or even on a long-term basis. Private villa owners should register their property as “touristic” and obtain a licence in order to rent out their property.
What a joke the last line is!!! I have repeatedly tried to register as ‘touristic’ and get a licence to be told, no, none are being issued!
BUT; the word is getting out, Right move are a big company, perhaps they need persuasion to print more !!
I am up early today and looking up ‘illegal lettings in Canaries’ on Google! Holiday Lettings.co.uk have an article similar to Rightmove, and Gran Canaria apartments also, and they have a good quote that the whole practice is ‘ a goverment sponsored protection racket’!!! love it!!
I will go and make coffee now and give you all a rest from my witterings!!
HolidayLettings belongs to TripAdvisor. All the other major ones belong to HomeAway. These include OwnersDirect, Holiday-rentals, Homelidays.com.
They were all independent but have been gobbled up in recent years by bigger players (making the former owners reasonably wealthy).
“A Place in the Sun” is certainly a TV programme on UK’s Channel 4, and it’s website indicates that it’s also a magazine and an overseas estate agency. Originally it was just a song by the Shadows!
Later today, I’ll set up a web page where we can each register our interest in working together. I’ll give you the URL when it’s ready.
Mr Freeman – that sounds great. It is nice to all make commentary and learn information from each other by writing on Janet’s website but I am sure it would be most useful if those of use who were serious about working together could do so.
Concerned owner – found the article in Right move and another on a Spanish Property website but could not see anything on Holiday Lettings?
THIS is the link Micky,
I have been thinking of an idea. Canarian Government is really worried about “bad publicity” abroad as that makes tourists go to other alternative destinations. If Alotca made British newspapers and TVs publish information about this “robbery”, the Government might stop its campaign or be willing to speak to Alotca and find solutions. I am sure that Canarian Authorities are not aware that tourists who travel to de Canaries to spend, for example, 4 weeks holiday will not pay for hotel accommodation from now on as they will not be able to book private apartments. They will choose a different place to enjoy their holiday. It would be fair and logical that private owners could carry on with their activity and pay taxes as hotels and apartment complexes do. But I think there should also be restrictions to private owners such as setting a minimum stay of 3 weeks, for instance. Otherwise they would be competing with hotels.
This would be part of the next stage of Alotca’s campaign. For reasons that I don’t want to go into publicly, our tactics so far have involved allowing this silence to continue … but we appreciate people want to make a lot of noise about it in their own right, and they have the perfect right to do this. We’re also virtually at the end of the first phase anyway, so our tactics would be changing anyway, having failed at this point to get any change from the Government itself. It’s now time to take the matter, and the tactics, beyond the Government.
For what it’s worth, though, we have no power whatsoever to “make” any paper publish anything.
On the net there are thousands of sites where people can post opinions about the Canaries and its hotels. Tripadvisor is the number one. I wonder what would happen if in a short period of time thousands of bad reports were posted everywhere. If Canarian Government realized that 7,000 affected owners are starting a terrible campaign against the destination and there was a significant reduction of tourists, would they keep being so strict with the weakest part of tourist industry? I am not encouraging anybody to do so.
Whilst I like the idea of “joining forces” wouldn’t it be better to all advise on solicitors being used so the solicitors can talk to each other, gain approximate number and they can formulate a plan together?
This may already be being done?
I don’t know if that’s permissible on here to name solicitors?
If my solicitor has 50, other solicitors simmilar, if we get solicitors liasing this will ultimately bring costs down if these cases do go to court.
I think taking some of these cases through court will identify flaws in how tourismo have handled this, as like I said in my earlier post, my solicitor tells me they are indeed breaking the law by handing out the same fine to everyone.
Minimum stay of 3 weeks Italian Lady!!!????? otherwise competing with hotels???? of course we are competing, that is what business is all about, why should hotels be allowed all the ‘up to 3 weeks’, sorry can see no logic in this!
11kidder, there are, really, only two lawyers (in Tenerife, anyway) who are fully up to speed on this, and these two are handling the vast majority of the appeals. They have been repeatedly mentioned on here – José Escobedo and Santiago Saenz. These are the “two lawyers” I always refer to in the context of Alotca – they, with me and two others are the five founding members.
I hope you’re aware of Alotca, because this is the only legitimate lobbying association that exists at present. You are behind the game in some ways, because we are already way past solicitors just talking to each other, gaining numbers, formulating a plan. We have also talked about a class action, and legal opinion (what we’d call barristers) has already been sought, so what you’re suggesting is already underway.
There is little doubt that the more publicity that can be given to this the better and it does now seem that the matter is becoming more prevelant in the public domain.
It is clear that everyone is really angry and frustrated about this short sighted revenue raising exercise by the Canarian Authorities and this is quite undertandable.
However, knowing how passionate Jose Escobedo is (and he is a Canarian) and his colleague and also Janet, I feel that it would be more productive to channel all efforts through one vehicle, ALOTCA.
It is interesting to watch episodes of ‘A Place in the Sun’ from 2000 (and the law concerned pre-dates this) and 2011 where presenters openly tell prospective buyers about being able to rent out properties in the Canary Islands. I assume this is why Janet has identified this as a good source of support for the lobbying.
The manner in which Tourismo have conducted this campaign is very unpleasant and I feel that even the appeals process has been shown to be disreputable as every appeal is treated in the same way, regardless of any mitigation.
In these challenging economic times it is evident that the Authorities would rather raise some large amounts of revenue in the short term and worry about the long term at a later date – it really may be too late then!!!
Link
I’ve seen it all now”
Janet I am not sure that that is a true comment “that there are really only two solicitors in tenerife dealing with this” I know many other people using other solicitors and all of them seem to know just as much as Jose and Santiago. The problem is the lawyers do not want to talk to each other or work as a team. This is where my concern lies. Afterall this is a big money making exercise for all lawyers in just fighting the fines already issued.
11kidder I posted my email on here yesterday and later today B Freeman is going to set up a website so that we can all register our email addresses and talk directly to each other in private if we so wish
Micky, I was advising someone the other day who had seen a fairly well-known south-Tenerife lawyer. This lawyer himself sent his own potential client to José or Santiago, saying that they were the only two who really know this issue intimately. Sorry, but I was quoting a lawyer when I said there are there are not “many”. There are indeed just two, with some of the rest accepting the work, of course – why wouldn’t they – but they do not know the detail as Tenerife Litigation do (that’s the collaborative “firm” formed by José and Santiago).
Philip, it’s not that I identified A Place in the Sun as a good source of support for the lobbying – they called me to ask for an interview. I was glad to oblige, but the encouraging thing is that they came looking for me because they were already aware of the issue. They are more aware now, let’s just say!
I agree with Phillip, ALOTCA are the experts, we should stick with them, splinter groups are not a good idea, dilutes the impact and quality of ALOTCA’s efforts.
Could someone please tell me how you access the boc website that lists the people who have been fined in the last 12 months. I can’t find it and need to confirm I’m on the list.
Janet, you’ve uttered “The figure of 7,500 is from the Government itself”. Where can we find this offcial figure to make sure this is reliable information?
Ian, the BOC link is HERE. As you’ll see, it’s not a “list”, but daily publications. It is a mammoth task going through each day’s publication, and is far simpler just to google your NIE with “BOC”. If you’ve received a fine that’s been published there, this will find it. Bear in mind, though, that the first means of issuing a fine is by letter. It is only if the letter cannot be delivered that the details are entered in the BOC.
“somebody”, I’m sorry if you cannot accept my word as reliable, it has been reported in the press but I don’t have specific links. In any case, the figure came from our own direct conversation with Turismo itself. Your only recourse to confirm this yourself is to speak to the Government directly.
To do this, the Dirección General de Ordenación y Promoción Turística page of the Canarian Government is HERE. You will see that it includes “Promoción y fomento del turismo”, which is the department dealing with “Inspección y sanciones”.
For ease, I’ve put all Tenerife’s official tourist contact details HERE: call 0034 922 475 477 for the Organization and Promotion department, which covers inspections/fines.
How many of the people commenting on here actually live on one of the canary islands. I am wondering if those living in UK are mainly in denial and those of us on here live in the islands which is why we are the most concerned group?
Mr Freeman how is the website coming along. I do not know where you come from but I guess one of the islands. There are many questions that I am sure we would all like to discuss together and individually.